[00:00:15] Jon M: I’m Jon Moscow.
And I’m Amy Halpern-Laff. Welcome to Ethical Schools. Our guest today is Dr. Kathryn Spence, director of the Peter Sammartino School of Education at Fairleigh Dickinson University in New Jersey. Under her leadership, social justice, and educational equity are central to both theory and practice. Welcome, Kate.
[00:00:33] Kate S: Hi, good afternoon.
[00:00:40] Jon M: Before becoming involved in teaching teachers, you taught middle school and high school in a wide variety of settings. Did any particular experience shape your approach to teacher education?
I think all of them did, even my experience as a student, I grew up in a progressive 7-12 educational setting in central Vermont, where we called all of our teachers by their first names and worked in teams where we looped from 7th to 8th grade with the same team of teachers and did project-based and experiential learning. I think growing up in that sort of setting made me believe in that sort of education, and it was successful for me and for many of the students there.
I went to a pretty traditional, I would say, teacher prep program in central Pennsylvania at a small liberal arts college. And while I was there, I had the opportunity to apply for a Fulbright and I did a teaching Fulbright in South Korea my first year out of undergrad. I had never been on an airplane, never left the country, never had any sort of international experience, didn’t speak the language, was unfamiliar with the culture, but they did a great job with their teaching. We were called English Teaching Assistants, ETAs, the Fulbright ETA program. And so for the first six weeks that we lived in Korea, we lived as a cohort of individuals learning the Korean language and we stayed at a Korean university and then after that 6 weeks, we were kind of dispersed across the country and we lived with a Korean family and taught in a Korean school and so it was a completely life changing experience for me and one that… I knew a fair amount about teaching. I learned a lot about myself.
And it’s a time that I point back to as being a visible, an obvious visible minority. With privilege, though, because in South Korea, at the time, and even now, I would say, Americans were seen as European. It was like you were an anomaly, but it was like a movie star status. So people would like point and point me out to their kids and be like, “it’s an American. Look, it’s an American.” And so it really helped me to think about this idea of representation and being asked to represent a culture or a people or constantly being watched and kind of surveyed, but through a positive lens. And I think that that has certainly shifted my thinking about what it means to be a minority in a place and also helped me to think a lot about what do I really believe about teaching and learning because the Korean system is quite different than ours. And they have some strong successes, but also some really serious challenges the same way that we do in our education system.
And I think being in a place that operated so differently and I’ve taught in rural, suburban, urban settings has helped me to weigh and measure what are the good things about what’s working here? What are the complicating things about what’s not working here? And then how do we make thoughtful decisions about how to move forward?
You’ve also done research. How has your research influenced your leadership, would you say?
[00:03:57] Kate S: Sure. My dissertation research was primarily about teacher attrition and retention. And we’re in a period of time now where we’re in a teacher shortage again. And I was really interested in looking at and still am interested in thinking about why do people who make it through the first couple of years of teaching decide to stay or choose to leave. And so coupled with that kind of academic research, I’ve spent a lot of time in what we call a “coaching” role in schools. So working with practicing teachers, and I think the combination of my research and interest in connection to why people stay or go, then thinking about how do we best prepare pre-service teachers to be functional in settings that are challenging. Teaching is hard. It’s not an easy job. And so what are the things that we can do on the front end to help teachers be as effective as possible when they get into the classroom?
And I think I’ve spent most of my time in New York City schools, and it’s been interesting as I’ve transitioned into spending time in New Jersey school districts to think about the philosophy. In New York City schools is there’s kind of an unending pipeline of people into the classroom through initiatives like the teaching fellows, or there are always people who want to live in New York City and so there are always people who will want to be teachers in New York City. But in other places in the country, that’s not true. And so how do we think about supporting those teachers? Or if the teachers who are there aren’t exactly where we want them or need them to be, how do we help them grow into the teachers who are going to be effective for all of our learners? So that has been an interesting, I think, shift.
But my practice and my research have always been closely connected in some ways, just for practical reasons, because I’m a mom and I’m an educator and I’m a researcher and I don’t have enough time to do those things separately. And so having those things kind of connect and braid together works better for me.
[00:06:02] Jon M: What have you found in terms of reasons why people who make it through the first couple of years, either decide to stay or decide to either leave the location they’re at or to leave teaching in the field completely
[00:06:15] Kate S: I think a lot of it is a sense of philosophical alignment or belonging in a school. I’ve been in some meetings recently where we’ve been talking about retention is the new recruitment. So keeping your teachers once they get into the district. And so I think really thinking about what are the ways that we help meet teachers with their needs. And then for teachers, how do we find a good fit that’s a philosophical alignment between what we believe about teaching and learning and then what is happening at the school where we’re actually practicing. I think that disconnect is often why people leave, that it’s not what they thought it would be. It’s hard. And there’s maybe a sense of being unappreciated or underappreciated. And just not having, being taken seriously as a professional, I think, also contributes to that.
[00:07:08] Amy H-L: How do you recruit pre service teachers, especially teachers of color?
[00:07:13] Kate S: That’s the billion dollar question, isn’t it? One of the things that we’re really thinking about is how do we give people an opportunity to interact with kids where they have that positive experience working with them, with students at whatever age they’re going to work in. And see, I think the reason a lot of times that people end up in teaching is because they do have positive experience with kids and they see that kind of spark in a kid’s eye, or they see a change in understanding, or there’s a relationship that develops.
And so one of the things that we’ve been thinking a lot about is how do we bring those opportunities to potential students, potential teachers earlier in their experience, or if we have people, say, who are math or science majors, we know there’s real shortages in those areas. How do we talk to people who have that content area interest and then help them match that with an interest in connection to kids, thinking about people who are in schools already. So people who are in roles, maybe not as teachers, but as paraprofessionals or community associates or custodians or bus drivers. These people oftentimes have already committed to the idea of schools and kids, but oftentimes just don’t have the credentials required to become teachers. So we’re thinking a lot about what are ways to help bridge interested potential teachers through either the degree process that they need or the credentialing process to bring them into teaching roles.
[00:08:52] Jon M: Do you find many districts in New Jersey actively interested in career ladders with people who are paraprofessionals or bus drivers or otherwise working in the school? Is that something that there’s an orientation towards?
[00:09:06] Kate S: I think there is certainly renewed interest in that, and I think we’re seeing that at the federal level through some workforce initiatives. We’re seeing that also at the state level. People are calling those sorts of programs “grow your own” programs, where you’re helping people who are already in your district grow into a different role.
There’s a lot of negative talk around teaching and I think, as I said before, I think teaching is a challenging, certainly rewarding, career, but it’s challenging. And so I think we know that maybe we need to shift societal expectations about teaching. Maybe we need to shift the conversation about teaching that will then maybe reflect a shift in societal expectations. But then there are people who are there doing it every day in schools. And so oftentimes underpaid for the work that they’re doing. And if we can help those people transition, I think that is seen as as a possibility right now.
[00:10:05] Amy H-L: How do you make it financially feasible for students who need to support themselves to participate in the program?
[00:10:13] Kate S: Yeah, so that’s where we’re seeing some of the workforce initiatives at the federal and state level, particularly through residency models or alternate route programs, are also an attempt to do this, where people become an educator of record while they’re earning their certification. The alternate route pathway, in New Jersey anyway, works for people who have a bachelor’s degree in whatever area they would be earning that teaching certification. And so then they’re earning a salary as a teacher while they’re also taking the coursework toward their teaching certification. I think it becomes a little bit harder when people don’t yet have a bachelor’s degree, and that’s where we see the “grow your own” programs coming in.
What we’re working on at FDU is a more flexible bachelor’s degree. It would work primarily for early childhood and elementary licensure where you don’t need as many credits in a major for the subject area license, but it’s a flexible bachelor’s degree that also has some flexibility in terms of when courses are being taught or offered.
And then the “grow your own” programs. The goal is to have some of the clinical components that are required towards certification occur in the place of employment. In most of these programs, then the district and through grant funding, essentially either state-supported or federally-supported, covers the cost of tuition for that coursework. And then usually the exchange is there’s a commitment to stay within the district for a certain period of time upon licensure.
[00:11:53] Amy H-L: And what kinds of moral support to your students receive that students in other programs might not?
[00:11:58] Kate S: Broadly, FDU is working on student welfare as one of the focal points and Students First as an initiative. And so I think across disciplines, regardless of whether people are becoming a teacher or not, we’re doing things. There’s a Center for Empathy, Research and Training. And so faculty are able to receive training on empathy and also mental health training is also provided. Broadly as an institution, we recognize that our students are sometimes facing challenges that are different than when we were students. And so working broadly for that, I think specifically in the school of education, our students have faculty advisors who they work with, full-time faculty from their point of entry through the end of their career at FDU. So over the five years, they have that consistent relationship where they’re connecting with that advisor. We also have our supervisors in both our traditional and our alternate route programs. Students take kind of support seminar courses throughout their clinical work, and then they have people who are working with them in the field as they’re earning their license. And so that makes our Alt Route program a little bit distinct because not everybody offers that sort of support. So we’re trying to balance the overwhelm that people feel as they’re learning to teach with the resources that we have at the university.
[00:13:34] Jon M: Shifting gears a little bit, how does New Jersey’s legacy of fostering residential segregation by redlining in the housing market impact schools and students today, would you say?
[00:13:46] Kate S: I would say that schools are still broadly segregated in New Jersey. I was actually listening to an AERA [American Educational Research Association] lecture last night, and they said that New Jersey is the seventh most segregated state in the nation in terms of our schools. And so because we have so many, we have over 630 school districts in the state of New Jersey. Because we have so many districts, which are then aligned with town boundaries, it makes it so that students attend schools that are frequently racially segregated. And so then there are certainly different experiences that they have based on particularly their elementary school. We have more regional high school districts, but most elementary school or middle schools are along geographic boundaries in towns.
[00:14:39] Jon M: You’ve mentioned that Fairleigh Dickinson is an HSI, a Hispanic Serving Institution. How does the School of Education serve Latine students in particular?
[00:14:48] Kate S: So the School of Ed is working in collaboration with the Hispanic Center at FDU to develop pathways specifically for bilingual and primarily adult learners, although we have programs through the Hispanic Center that are for traditionally aged students as well. And so what we’re working to do is provide ESL and math support for students who are interested in becoming teachers to help them pass their certification exams in order to enter into education coursework. So we’ve developed a course that is , focused on what you might need to know, or education, in the US. That is an ESL course. Students at FDU who are in our Puerta Al Futuro program take zero credit ESL courses. They don’t pay for the courses, but they get nine hours of ESL sessions. And so this course is geared for students who are in the upper levels of proficiency, regardless of where they are in terms of their credit accumulation, who have indicated that they are interested in becoming educators. We work with them in this course, and then we also provide bilingual math tutoring for students in preparation. Many of our adult learners haven’t taken a math course in a long time, so having some content support with that is also essential for students. And then we’re also providing 1 on 1 or 2 on 1.
My Spanish isn’t great so sometimes I need translation support for that. So two advisors, bilingual support for me, and then me and the students, so that we can map out individualized plans based on what they hope to teach, where they are in their progression toward earning a bachelor’s degree and sometimes an associate’s degree, if they’re just getting started, and then what they’ll need to know in terms of licensure in New Jersey. The removal of the core academic skills exam is going to be really helpful for our students who are bilingual, who are interested in becoming teachers. Many of them will become Spanish teachers. So they’ll either become Spanish teachers, or we’re also encouraging people to pursue bilingual certification. So elementary or early childhood certification with a bilingual license as well. The certification exams are different, and so not having to practice core academic skills exam was really a gatekeeper for many interested pre service teachers, especially those who speak another language.
[00:17:39] Amy H-L: Have you had any pushback to your focus on social justice and equity from the university or from anywhere else?
[00:17:46] Kate S: Not from the university, I would say. Sometimes there are conversations about what words you want to put in your social media or how you want to advertise a job or things like that. But the university has been supportive of our focus on social justice. And I think particularly in connection to the recognition that we need to prepare educators who are ready to teach the diverse population of New Jersey. And New Jersey, despite having segregated schools, New Jersey has vast diversity across the state. And so we know that all of our educators need to have this focus in order to do justice for our students.
I think sometimes our students are not ready for the conversation and that’s because they’ve grown up in segregated schools in places where they haven’t had these sorts of conversations. So we often see that. We have two campuses and our populations on the two campuses tend to be a little bit different on one campus, which tends to be a little bit less racially diverse. Our white students who are pre-service teachers say it’s the most diverse place they’ve been. And our students of color say it’s the least diverse place they’ve been. So sometimes those conversations are a little bit… There is pushback there. But also in a lot of ways that’s developmentally appropriate. So it’s like, yes, we’ll engage in those conversations. And yes, we’ll have different opinions about it. And yes, our goal is to be great educators for all of the students in New Jersey. So that means we need to learn from each other’s perspectives and be ready to meet students who are different than we are.
[00:19:40] Jon M: Is there anything that you’d like to talk about that we haven’t asked about?
[00:19:44] Kate S: I would say that one of the things that has really helped us at FDU is thinking about, as we’ve tried to make some of the changes in our program, what are the pieces that we can control immediately and making changes there, and then settling into those changes and looking for the next step. And so I think that really allowing us to have a social justice focus was something that we started with our pre-service program, and it has been a long time coming. And then, as we made those changes, we were also able to hire people who philosophically had alignment and would be able to support those changes. And then that helped us to increase the sphere of influence that we had at our institution. And so I think where we are now is at a place that’s a result of many small steps over years of time. And I think we’re really excited to be in the place that we are right now. And we know that there are still more steps that we need to take. But I think it’s been really an interesting change process to consider how, right, making the small, immediate change can then ripple outward as we’re, as we’re still continuing to learn and grow.
[00:21:07] Amy H-L: What changes do you see for the school in the future?
[00:21:09] Kate S: I would love to have bilingual offerings. As a Hispanic Serving Institution, I would love to be able to better support our Spanish speaking students. And I think some of that would require having bilingual faculty. So like right now we have a course that’s a gen ed course, equity, ethics, and education that we have for our undergraduate students, and that course is offered in English. Because most of our students are English speaking for our partnership with the Hispanic Center, we’ve talked about how this class could be a class that students take toward their bachelors degree within that program. And in order to do that, we would need to have somebody who could function equally proficiently in Spanish and English.
We’ve dabbled a little bit with that. We work with a program in New Jersey that was run out of the Center for Future Educators, offering dual credit high school courses and one of the courses that we’ve offered is called tomorrow’s teachers. So it’s a class that students take in high school and they get college credit for it. And it’s kind of what does it mean to be a teacher? Kind of education 101. That curriculum also is offered in Spanish. And so we last year piloted offering Spanish sections of the course in a couple of high schools, and we have tried to do that with a section on our campus as well. We didn’t get the numbers where they needed to be for us to run it. Continuing to move in that sort of direction where we’re thinking about how to support the population that we have in Bergen County and in Morris County and those who are choosing FDU, how do we meet them where they are and then help them to grow into educators? So, that would be a next step that maybe is a couple of steps down the road, but a first step that we did accomplish is having the approval of that flexible bachelor’s degree and leading into teaching certification. And so that will allow us to partner with districts, with “grow your own” programs. And so hoping to continue to grow that sort of relationship with districts so that they can meet their own needs.
[00:23:37] Amy H-L: Thank you so much. Kate Spence, director of the Peter Sammartino School of Education at Fairleigh Dickinson University.
[00:23:45] Kate S: Thank you.
[00:23:46] Jon M: And thank you listeners. Check out our new video series, What Would YOU Do?, a collaboration with Professor Meira Levinson of the Harvard Graduate School of Education and EdEthics. Go to our website, ethicalschools.org and click video. The goal of the series is not to provide right answers, but to illustrate a variety of ethical viewpoints.
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