[00:00:15] Jon M: I’m Jon Moscow.
[00:00:22] Amy H-L: And I’m Amy Halpern-Laff. Welcome to Ethical Schools. Today we speak with Dr. Dawn Hicks Tafari, professor of education and program coordinator for elementary education at Winston-Salem State University in North Carolina. Dr. Tafari is the author of The Journey of Kamau Miller: Hip Hop Composite Counter Stories for Black Men Teachers.
Welcome Dawn.
[00:00:49] Dawn H T: Thank you. Thank you so much. It’s wonderful to be here.
[00:00:54] Jon M: Why did you become interested in Black men as teachers?
[00:00:57] Dawn H T: I was an elementary school teacher. I started teaching in Brownsville, Brooklyn, PS/IS 41. And when I was in the classroom, I had a wonderful group of children and I did my best to be creative and to relate to them.
And what I noticed was that so many of the boys were feeling and being lost. And I had one student in particular, we’ll call him Tom, who I was struggling with. I was struggling to connect. I was struggling to engage him. He was, you know, just really rambunctious and busy. And so I asked for help. You know, I asked the veteran teachers, other women teachers. The majority of the teachers in the building were women, and many of them were like, well, refer him for special ed.
And I remember thinking, I don’t think that he needs special education. I just need some other ways to engage him. And so, because I refused to refer him for special ed, I just said, okay, Dawn, what can you do? But one of the things, I was able to engage him, be more creative to, you know, interact with him outside of school and things like that, of course, with his family’s permission.
But one of the things that I noticed in my years at 41 was the lack of Black male teachers and the placement. Because what I started to do was think about was maybe he needs a man to talk to, right? Maybe he needs somebody who he can see himself in more directly, not just racially, but as far as gender is concerned. Some of the conversations that a sixth grader wants, that a sixth grade boy wants to start having, right, a man. And I noticed that there weren’t a lot of men. The men in the building were the PE teacher, the principal, and the dean of students. And I noticed that that’s where they were placed and it almost felt weirdly intentional.
And so as I continued in my career, I started to continue to pay attention to that. Where are the Black men teachers in the schools? We’re concerned. I was concerned about the process and the progress of Black boys in school. Black boys seem to always be at the bottom of the hierarchy academically in schools. They seem to be the majority of children referred for special education, referred for out-of-school suspension, sending them for in-school suspension. Every school I went to; I’ve taught in New York City, I’ve taught in Baltimore City, I’ve taught in Greensboro and High Point, North Carolina. And everywhere I’ve been, that has been the case. And everywhere I’ve been, what I’ve also noticed was that there was a serious dearth of Black male teachers, that Black boys don’t see themselves in schools. And so that’s why I said, well, if I really want to help Black boys, maybe I should focus on Black male teachers, to try and figure out one, why they’re not in schools in a much larger way, and what I can do to get them there and to keep them there. So that’s why I started. That’s where my passion for this work with Black male teachers comes from.
[00:04:03] Amy H-L: Could you tell us a little about the history of men in general as teachers and Black men in particular?
[00:04:10] Dawn H T: So the interesting thing is, is when we look at schools right now, we would think that men have never really been teachers, but it’s quite the opposite, right. So we think of this country, it’s a very patriarchal country. So men were teachers initially. But then when we started to have these wars, right, men were being pulled to for service, to fight in wars. And so women were pulled into the classrooms. And then in the 1880s, there was a movement to professionalize teaching for women, right. So Catherine Beecher Stowe started to really do this work around saying, okay, well women have these innate qualities, we’re nurturers, we’re teachers. We already have these mothering skills and talents with us. Let’s continue to professionalize and make this the thing, right.
They were cheap, right? Because at the time, and this is why, when we think of pay as far as teachers are concerned, we don’t pay teachers the way we should, because teachers were young, they were maidens, they were living with, they were being boarded by a family in the community. And so they did that, and they did that job until they got married. So there was no need to pay them a whole lot of money because they were women, which of course was not valued much in society at the time, but their housing, you know, all of their needs were being taken care of, housing and food and things like that.
And so as we continued on, right, years changed and obviously the population changes in the country, laws changed and things like that. Everything changed except how we paid teachers. And then we started to get, as we continued to diversify again, the student population, more children of different racial backgrounds, because we know, obviously everybody was not allowed to go to school in the 1800s. We started to see the need to bring men back into classrooms, Black men back into classrooms, a more diverse teaching force to help make sure that our children can see themselves in the classroom, but we are struggling to catch up with the understanding that this is a job that needs equitable pay, right, a pay that matches the inflation in society, where we are capitalistically, if I can say.
And so, we see these movements to get Black men back in schools. But when you think of the fact that this is a position that’s has been historically underfunded, right, and under-compensated, men are typically looking for positions that provide them access to being head of household. And so it’s hard to be head of household if you’re paying me cents on a dollar.
And so that, that is where the real disparity really started to come in. We want more men in the classroom, but we’re like, hey, you’re not paying enough for men, right, which highlights pay disparities, right. It highlights gender gaps in how we pay people for their work. And so that continues on.
And then there are other things that come into play. So now it’s not just the pay, but it’s also the stigma attached with it. So if a man says, I love children, I wanna work with children, people. And the society tends to look at him like there’s something wrong with him. Like, what’s wrong with, why do you wanna work with children? You must be a pedophile, right? Or we problematize homosexuality, or you must be gay. Like there’s something wrong with homosexuality, right? There’s this thing that happens. So we have this lack of pay equity in education, so it makes it difficult for men to be head of household. You have these stigmas attached to the work as well.
And then there are the ways that we treat men when they do become teachers. The men that I have talked with over the years have shared that they’ve had parents who’ve hit on them. And if they don’t return, the flirting and the advances, then they’re accused of, oh, he must be gay, or there’s something wrong with him. They’ve told me these stories, or they’re asked to do things that are outside of the scope of their job. Can you carry my boxes? So they’re asked to not really be a classroom teacher, but to do the job of the dean of students per se. Like because he’s a Black man in the building, he should be able to control the behavior of all of the other children in the building. So these are some of the things that, that we see and that drive men out.
And just the basic, the most basic of it all. When I was in school as a little Black girl in the Bronx, most of my teachers were women. I had one male teacher, a white male teacher, Mr. Young, my fourth grade teacher. But most of my teachers were women. I had two Black female teachers and the other teachers were white women. I saw myself even in the white women. I’m a girl. I’m gonna be a woman. I saw myself in them. I saw a teaching as a viable position, as a viable opportunity for me as a girl, right. Boys don’t see that. Boys don’t see that boys are in school and the majority of the teachers are women. They may see one or two men, so they don’t see that, oh, this is a career, possible career for me, because they don’t see men in those positions. They just don’t. Not in a large way, right? What’s the, what’s the saying, if you can see it, you can believe it. They’re not seeing it, so why would they aspire to be something that they don’t even know is possible for them? Okay.
[00:09:57] Amy H-L: And I just want to clarify something, Dawn? When you spoke about pay equity, you’re talking about equity with other professional Black men?
[00:10:11] Dawn H T: Well, I’m talking about across across professions, period. And so two things. We have the gender gap period where women overall get paid less than men. Even in the same exact position, women tend to get paid less than men. We still see it. I see it. But then there’s also how we underfund and underpay educators, so K-12 teachers who require at least a bachelor’s degree to get fully licensed, and the, the hurdles are intense to become a teacher, leave their bachelor’s degrees, oftentimes accepting offers in the forties, maybe the fifties, while people who major in other fields, accounting, engineering, are making twice that sometimes. So the pay equity, or the inequity is happening within this gender gap, but also among professions.
[00:11:08] Jon M: You’ve opened up so many strands that we wanna follow up on, but I have one question first, which is, the things that you’ve been talking about, is it different in secondary schools? Is it different in high schools, or have the patterns been the same?
[00:11:22] Dawn H T: Most of the men who go into teaching choose secondary, because in secondary, what we say is middle and high school teachers teach subjects. Elementary and pre-K teachers teach children. That’s what we say in education. And so a lot of times they feel that the children are older, they can talk, there’s less stigma around, and one of the things that two, several of the men, actually shared with me was in secondary, there are opportunities to supplement their income. They can coach. And a lot of them wanted to coach, even if they were a history teacher or a health ed teacher, or even a math teacher. They had the opportunity to coach, which came with a pay supplement. And so they wanted those kinds of opportunities. Yeah. In high schools, when you think about it, high schools tend to be bigger. They’re larger than elementary schools. So then, then there are more opportunities to do other things, like become the dean of students, right. Move up in administration as well.
And then of course, the stigma, right. So you are working with older children. Older children can talk, so they can tell if somebody is doing something to them, right. There’s all kinds of. Really ridiculous. Just these constraints that we put on men in society based on the sexualization of children, the adultification of children, you know. It’s hard, but yes, there is a difference. Most of the men who about, you know, 2% of all teachers across the country are Black men, and about a quarter of that, if not less, are in elementary and pre-K.
[00:13:02] Amy H-L: And what are the specific needs of, especially Black, children in elementary school to have Black male teachers?
[00:13:12] Dawn H T: Ooh. So young children are developing, we think about elementary school children, so we’re thinking of ages five through 11, critically sensitive developmental periods in their lives. They are developing their identity, their gender identity, their social identity, literally, their brains are forming, still forming. Well, their brains are forming up to about 23, but you know, they’re going through these very rapid developmental changes in all physical, emotional, social, in all kinds of ways. And so they need to know what society looks like in a healthy way. What a healthy, balanced society does, right. So when children only see women in the classroom, then they associate the teachers with mothers and mothers care. And dads pop in every now and then, right? There’s that. That narrative is perpetuated and that’s not the narrative we want. We want children to know. We want boys to know that men are nurturing, that men are supportive, that they love children, that they care about children. They don’t just pop into play when it’s time to throw a child in the air, right. That men can provide sustenance and nurturing and love and education, right. That men can provide those things. Because that helps boys become healthy men, when they can see those things early on. When they have a male teacher when they’re in kindergarten and they fall down and the teacher gets them up, brushes their knee off and gives them a hug, think about the lesson that that boy has just learned. It’s not just women who can provide the nurturing, but men can provide nurturing too. Oh, I can be a kind and loving man when I grow up. Wow. So that’s a lesson that they need.
And so in children, when we think of children of color, in particular Black children, children need people who know their struggle. They can talk to them about what are some of the dangerous things that are happening in the world, what are some of the things that you need to know specifically so that you can navigate society carefully. How should you talk to people? How should you dress? All of those things that are very political, right? This very re respect respectability politics, but it’s also a cultural understanding of ways to navigate spaces safely when you are a person of color in this country.
[00:15:49] Jon M: And we’ve been talking about elementary school, but I would assume that this is just as true or even more true in the zero to five age group?
[00:15:59] Dawn H T: Absolutely. So for a study I did for the book Journey to Kamal Miller, I talked to nine Black male teachers. Elementary school. Out of the nine, one was a pre-K teacher. One, and I nearly jumped out of my skin when I found him. There are not a lot of men, period, and especially not Black men, teaching zero to five, teaching children in that birth through kindergarten area. For all of the reasons we just discussed, right, that you know how people look at men who love children. And this man, again, he loved children. He was a musician. He’s a musician. He kind of got into teaching in a backhanded kind of way. Like a lot of them do. A lot of them weren’t necessarily seeking teaching, but somebody said, Hey, you would be a really good teacher. Or they were volunteering somewhere and they were like, wow, I’m really enjoying working with children. And so he loved bringing that energy, the music, to the classroom and working with young children. But absolutely, you don’t see as many at that level. They’re scared. So many men are taught that they’re going to break children. And it’s like, no. You can. You’re okay. You can work with the children.
[00:17:14] Amy H-L: So it seems as though we’re going to need a culture shift if we’re going to have more Black men teachers.
[00:17:21] Dawn H T: Absolutely. So there’s a wonderful, there’s a show. Have you ever watched the show, Key and Peele, Keegan-Michael Key and Jordan Peele? It’s a hilarious variety show. And so they have a skit on there called the Teacher Draft, and I want everybody to watch it. The Teacher Draft. And what they do is they simulate how they do the NBA draft. You know, where the news, the cameras and everybody’s all tuned in and they’re looking at the comparing offers that they’ve gotten. But they do that same thing with teachers. So imagine. And then there’s even a scene where they’re showing a play-by-play of this great teacher and how she gets through. They have the cameras in her classroom and it’s showing her getting children involved and how she can engage children and, and it’s showing how this teacher had these kind of test scores and this success and she’s going accept this offer for 5.2 million from this school district. So it totally flips the concept on its head. And we think about what we pay athletes for entertainment versus what we pay highly trained teachers whose job is literally to educate the people, the citizens of this country, right. You don’t become a neurosurgeon if you don’t pass the third grade. You don’t become an astronaut unless you learn your alphabet in kindergarten, right. You don’t get any of these high paying jobs. Shoot. You can’t become an NBA player until you graduate, until you’ve passed 10th grade history. But we still value everyone else over the people who literally make it all happen. Literally. And so that skit, I love it. I show it, and I wish it were not just a joke, right. I wish the roles were reversed in the sense that we really paid teachers what they were worth, that we as a society had this paradigm shift where we really valued education in the way instead of saying, oh, you know how when you meet people who tell you they’re a teacher, and you go, oh, that’s so nice, right? It’s like we pity them instead of saying, wow, can I get your autograph? You are a teacher. You get up every day and you create effective, engaging lesson plans and you help mold minds and you teach children how to do math and how to love math, and how to combine science experiments and solve equations. And you think about what teachers actually do. Because you imagine if we paid teachers what they were worth. Wow. A teacher draft. It needs to be a real thing. It really does.
[00:20:05] Jon M: Absolutely. Your book is Subtitled, Hip Hop Counter Stories for Black Men Teachers. Why is hip hop important?
[00:20:14] Dawn H T: Ooh, hip hop. I could only work from where is my standpoint, right? So I’m born in 1974 and I’m from the Bronx, and hip hop was born in 1973 in the Bronx. And so hip hop is the soundtrack of my life. And also what hip hop is, it’s really the sound, it’s the voice of a generation. It’s the sound of resistance and revolution. And Chuck D said once that hip hop is the CNN of the ghetto. If you wanna know what’s going on in the ghetto, if you wanna know what young Black and Brown children are interested in and what’s going on in their communities, listen to hip hop because that’s where you’ll hear those stories. That’s where you’ll hear the information. And so because of that, I think it’s something that we really need to involve, especially if you relate to that, right, so with children who are listening to the music, right. If you’re working with Black and Brown children or children in urban communities who are listening to the music, you need to speak their language. It’s really important that you understand who they are and how they’re thinking, and that’s what we are thinking about.
It’s a way of being culturally relevant by bringing hip hop. The conversation because it’s, it’s a part, it’s a moral part of, of who many of us are, of how we navigate spaces, right through hip hop. I learned so much about myself as a person, how to navigate society, how to navigate relationships with other people, how to learn things.
It’s a whole culture that has provided me with all kinds of information and, and tips and strategies for being successful in life. And so we can hone those things and, and bring those into the classroom. That is a wonderful thing. And also being able to relate to who children are and the things that they’re interested in.
Right? It’s really easy to brush off children and say, oh, no, you shouldn’t be listening to that. That’s trash. But if we stop and actually listen to the music, listen to the messages that are being relayed. First to understand why are children so interested in it, and two, how can I use that to engage them?
So one of my classes, I use hip hop. I teach two courses that counterpart courses. One is advancing the academic success of Black males, and another is advancing in the academic and social success of Black girls. And in both classes, I use hip hop songs throughout the weeks, each week. So we have an assigned reading in the text, and then there’s a song.
That I use that helped us to unpack, uncover, and dig deeper into those themes. So for instance, one of the books we read is, uh, understanding Black Male Learning Styles, uh, by Jawanda Kunjufu. And in that week, for instance, we’re gonna be looking at learning styles, right? And, and how to engage Black boys in schools.
And Kunjufu talks about the showdown, which is this thing, this power struggle between student and teacher. Well that week, the song of the Week is Wet Dreams by j Cole. Right. So j Cole is also great ’cause he’s from North Carolina. Right. But the song of the week is Wet Dreams by j Cole. And this whole song is about these high school kids who are having gonna have sex for the first time.
Right. That’s the overall synopsis. But if you actually listen to the lyrics, the song starts. I was in my math class. He is telling this story. J Cole is telling this story about how he’s sitting in math class and he sees this girl and his mind starts, he’s, he thinks she’s pretty, and they start having this conversation and they’re passing notes.
And then there’s even a, a line in the, in the song where he says, teacher, please don’t make me stand up. And so what I do with my students is we unpack that and I’m like, why does he say, teacher, please don’t make me stand up. And they’re like, well, ’cause he probably, you know, is aroused at this, all this stuff going on in his head.
And I say, well, what would’ve happened if you said, no, sir, you need to stand up. What would have happened. So we discussed that, that exchange and why you should never go toe to toe with the student for the showdown, because at that point, every single student that I have had in my classrooms, the, especially the male students, will say, yeah, I, I’ll take the L. You have to send me to the principal. And so now you have a boy who has a referral to the office because of some physiological stuff as opposed to, now mind you, the teacher, there’s no way of you knowing. But mind you, there’s also a classroom management issue. ’cause children are passing notes in your classroom, right?
They’re not, they’re clearly not engaged. So you see all that I can get from this song. There’s a conversation with my students about classroom management. There’s a conversation with my students about how to better engage students. Monitoring them. Then there’s a conversation about when and how do we involve the administration?
Like is this an issue that we would have to send this boy to the office about? Or is it better to just say, you know what? Okay, Mr. Cole see me after class. Let’s talk about this. What was his offense? Insubordination. Do you realize that the number of children that get suspended for insubordination, I. When sometimes they have reasons, right, there’s a reason why he wouldn’t stand up. He could not bear the embarrassment that would come in, and in that situation he was like, nah, I’ll take the write up. But if we dig deeper as teachers, it’s an opportunity for us to connect, to develop a rapport with that student and to give them another chance to help engage them. And imagine a Black male teacher being in that position who may have recognized the signs, who might understand that why isn’t he standing? Why won’t he stand up? He’s talking to me from his seat, but why won’t. Oh, right. Something that a man would likely think to understand before a female teacher would. Before a woman teacher.
[00:26:27] Jon M: So the other part of the subtitle is Counter Stories. Yes. Can you talk to us about counter stories? What is that and why do you use that form?
[00:26:36] Dawn H T: Yeah, so counter stories. I’m a critical race theorist, and instead it comes out of the work of Derek A. Bell and critical race theory. And in critical race theory, what we are doing is we’re looking at what is the meta narrative, the story that society, right, white patriarchal, capitalist, racist society tells about people of color. And then, what’s the story that we tell about ourselves? What’s the truth? What’s the actual story? So you have this meta narrative that all Black men are thugs, right. But then there’s the counter story that says, well, when I got into that fight, I was protecting myself or I was protecting my partner. Or, yes, I may have robbed that store, but it was only because I was trying to feed my family, or it was a case of mistaken identity and I was never there, right. So then there, there’s our realities of what actually happens and, and who we actually are. And so, and that’s what these composite counter stories are.
In this book, what I’m doing is telling the truth from Black men’s perspective. These are Black men who love children. One of the stories is about a man who was working. His mother was a principal and his mother would always have him come, volunteer and help in the school. And so he felt like he just, he didn’t have any other way he could go because he had always been in schools and he always loved schools and he loved the voices of the children and the sounds of the classroom, and so he felt compelled to go into teaching. People don’t tell that story about Black men. They don’t tell that story. Or the man who, the teacher who was working in insurance, was married, working in insurance as an underwriter, and then as he had been married, I think, maybe 19 years, he was starting to feel like he was not satisfied, like he was not feeling fulfilled in his work. And so he goes to his wife and he says, honey, I wanna talk to you about this because I’m not happy at work. She says, well, what do you need to be happy? And he says, I really wanna go back to school. I think I wanna be a teacher. And she says, well, I support you in that. Those stories are not told about this beautiful Black woman who supports her husband in making this difficult decision that will ultimately and very directly impact their economic stability, right. But that’s a counter story. It’s the stories that are not told, the stories that are not perpetuated in the media that humanize and show the beauty in Blackness and Black love and Black masculinity. So that’s what composite kind of stories are.
[00:29:33] Amy H-L: You’ve been influenced by Derek Bell. Would you talk about that?
[00:29:39] Dawn H T: Absolutely, absolutely. Derek Bell. Many years ago I attended a conference. It was probably the Critical Race Studies Conference in New York City. It was at Teacher’s College and this is probably like, you know, 2017 or so. Yeah, because I was already working on my dissertation, so maybe in 2017. And I heard about the book Faces at the Bottom of the Well. I got the book right away and read it and I said, wow. And I remember thinking to myself, I knew that I always wanted to write in a way that was accessible to regular people. I want my mother to be able to read my work. And so some of the work that we write in academia is very scholarly. And you know, we use the big words and the long string of references, but that’s not what most people wanna read. And that’s the other beautiful thing about counter stories is they utilize what we call an unapologetic creativity where you are now incorporating elements of reality of everyday life into telling this story, which is all what we call a fictionalized narrative, right. So I’m taking real data, real interview transcripts. So these composite counter stories are not made up. This is not my imagination. What I did was I took the actual words from the men who talked to me, who shared their life stories, who trusted me with their life stories. And then what I did was I wove them together. I weaved them together in this beautiful way and created one character that represents all nine of the men. And I put him in fictional situations where he then engages in dialogue. That comes directly from the men that I interviewed. So the words that you hear out of Kamal’s mouth throughout the book are actual words that were shared for me. That’s not Dawn Tafari’s imagination, right? Dawn Tafari’s imagination is a thing that said, okay, I’m gonna situate him in the airport for this conversation. I’m gonna situate him on a basketball court. I’m gonna situate him in a PTA meeting. That was me. But the dialogue. That’s the men, that’s a counter story as well. It’s being creative in the way that we share and we relay the research that we do, right, because that can separate people. It can become very classist when you think of an academia. When we write, we go and we study people in communities and then we write about it in a way that they can’t understand or relate to it or not even would want to, right. It would be boring to them.
And that’s very separative, right? It’s very classist. And so when I’m trying to do composite counter stories or counter stories, kind of break down those walls, it gives the work back to the people who gave it to me, right, so that they can enjoy it in a way that they don’t have to struggle. They don’t have to sit with a dictionary to read it.
[00:32:39] Jon M: What are the impacts on schools and teachers of attacks on diversity, equity, and inclusion?
[00:32:47] Dawn H T: Ooh, it’s tiring. Teachers are, are frustrated, and I can tell you directly, my university has lost funding. So we had a lot of universities get grants from the federal government in order to provide stipends for teachers, in order to recruit teachers. You know those programs where we say, come to our university for free, tuition paid and you’ll get a stipend. We are doing things like that, and those things have been just snatched right from under us. So it’s impacting how we recruit teachers. It’s impacting the supplements that we are able to give to teachers. So it’s hitting teachers right in the pocket first of all, and then it’s censoring teachers. Imagine on the basketball court telling Stephen Curry that he can’t dribble a certain way, right? Like putting all these restraints on him, things that he is normally doing.
Education is a transformative experience. It’s a place where we talk, where we help children learn about the world around them. It’s not just about teaching them two plus two, but social studies is literally helping children understand how the world works, how do they fit into society, how do societies work? And now this muzzle that has been put on teachers is impacting that. Teachers don’t know what to say. They’re afraid to say it. Children are afraid to speak up, and of course, children are not coming to school in the same way. If we have children who are undocumented or even if they’re documented, but they have a Latinx last name, their parents are keeping them home. They’re scared to say who they are. They’re scared to open their mouths. They’re scared that ICE is going to come into the school and grab them, right. Which is horrific because when I think historically, I know when I was growing up, we always thought churches and schools were safe spaces. You knew if you walked in a church building, any religious building, whether it be a synagogue, a mosque, you walked in there, you were safe, right. You go in a school building, you’re safe. And these days, neither is the case anymore. Not just the school shootings, just heartbreaking every time, but the fact that these folk have gotten permission. Federal agents can go into a school building and take children. I don’t even, I mean, it’s just, it’s heart shattering. Like it’s horrifying and disgusting that children can’t even feel safe in school. So teachers are hurting for so many reasons. They’re hurting because their children are hurting, right. These are people who go into this field, and as we know, because of the financial limitations, you know. People don’t go into teaching for the big bucks, right. It’s not a field you go into if you wanna be . You go into it because you have a heart for it, because you love children, because you wanna change the world. And then imagine those very children that you wanna touch, those very children who you wanna impact, those very children who you have worked hard to relate to are not even coming. Because they’re afraid. They’re afraid.
[00:36:08] Amy H-L: Thank you so much, Dr. Dawn Hicks Tafari of Winston-Salem State University.
[00:36:14] Dawn H T: Thank you. Thank you. This has been a great conversation. I appreciate the questions and your interest in this topic.
[00:36:20] Jon M: And thank you, listeners. If you found this podcast worthwhile, please share it with friends and colleagues. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast and give us a rating or review. This helps others to find the show. Check out our website for more episodes and videos and to subscribe to our email newsletters. We post annotated transcripts of our interviews to make them easy to use in workshops or classes.
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